Episode 4 of “What d’you mean you don’t brush it?” The podcast about curly and wavy hair.
This week Lauren and Dylan address the haircut phenomenon of curl shock. Is this a real thing or is it just b**ls**t?
We also compile the beginner’s kit for anybody starting their curly hair journey.
We review the product Davines Curl Building Serum (well, at least Lauren does). She then rolls her eyes at Dylan’s one cool thing.
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DYLAN – What do you mean you don’t brush it?
LAUREN – The podcast about Curly and wavy hair with me, Lauren from Love Curly Hair
DYLAN – And me, Dylan Bray
LAUREN – Welcome to today’s episode. Today we’re starting with a look at curl shock. What really happens to your hair straight after a haircut? We’ll then spotlight the product Davines Curl Building Serum and after that it’s over to you guys for listeners’ questions followed by something that might be curl-related or might just be one cool thing
DYLAN – But who are we to be telling you all this? Lauren? Who are you?
LAUREN – I’m a curly hair blogger
DYLAN – And I’m a hairdresser who specialises in curly hair. Now who, our listener, are you?
LAUREN – You are probably somebody who has curly hair. You may be the parent of someone with curly hair, you might work with curly hair, or perhaps you here by accident
DYLAN – Whoever you are, you’re here because you’re really bored and you want answers. So let’s get started. So what’s first thing on the agenda today, Lauren?
L – Well, let’s start today with a look at curl shock
D – Curl what?
L – Curl shock
D – And what is curl shock?
L – Well, curl shock is something that allegedly happens to curly and wavy hair straight after a haircut. I’ve heard it described as your hair freaking out after a haircut
D – And who alleges this?
L – The internet
D – The autonomous internet?
L – The Internet of Curly hair
D – Ohh, the Internet of Curly. Yeah, that one
L – Yeah
D – OK, so can you describe it?
L – From what I understand, it is your hair not falling back into its previous curl pattern after you’ve had it cut. And that means it therefore doesn’t sit properly. And then you have to wait a few weeks for it to calm down afterwards, and then and then it will sit properly into its haircut again
D – OK, this sounds like nonsense. The suggestion here is that the hair is somehow shocked by
L – Shocked by having a haircut
D – The hair
L – The hair itself, the hair, the hair is
D – The hair has gained the emotional state of shock. OK
L – That’s exactly what’s happening. Yeah
D – I don’t think that is exactly what’s happening
L – You don’t think that’s what’s happening? And why not?
D – Well, because the hair is… I mean, it’s passive at best. What is there to be shocked? Hair’s dead. My explanation for this would be that the person is not used to the hair
L – Do you not think it could be a real thing?
D – No
L – Not that your hair’s gone. Not not that your hair itself has gone into shock as in has had an emotional reaction to being cut. But is there a chance that in cutting the hair the the the natural curl pattern has somehow been disrupted, which therefore means that it doesn’t sit quite as it did before? If you have a a clump, curl clump. Is there a way that you could cut a curl clump that would mean that it wouldn’t then sit back together in the same way
D – I think we’re back over a bit of old territory here, in that you’re always assuming that the curl will always fall into the same curl clump, which it doesn’t. I mean, does your hair fall into the same curl clumps?
L – No. There are some I recognise
D – Really?
L – That seem to come back
D – You have a passing acquaintance with
L – I vaguely remember you from a few weeks ago
D – You were quite shocked. I seem to remember. I remember your histrionics
L – Yeah. I mean, generally speaking, no, not exactly the same every time
D – When you’re talking curl shock. Are you talking about after a major restyle or are you talking about after a trim? Because I would guess there’s very few after a trim. I would imagine it’s a restyle. And then of course the curl… It’s hard to know because the curl pattern is twofold. The individual hairs on the head that come together to form the curl pattern, but it’s also the length. Say for example your hair. Lauren, if you can give us the number system with your hair, what would your hair be?
L – I would say 2C, a couple of bits, more like a 3A
D – Just a couple of bits?
L – Yeah, it varies
D – Two strengths
L – Two different strengths, yeah, between, yeah, 2C and 3A, yeah
D – 3A, 2C. OK. So your hair is gonna need a certain amount of length to complete a certain number of curls
L – Yeah
D – So if we were to say take off half your length, it’s going only going to complete at most half the curls. So I can see how that is what could be described as curl shock, but that is in no way the hair reacting. I would assume people are kind of placing onto their hair their shock
L – I see
D – And also because it takes a few weeks to get used to a haircut, particularly one that you’re not actually that sure about
L – Have you ever had a client come to you and say after my last haircut I had my hair went into curl shock?
D – No, no, that’s a really interesting thing actually, because I’ve read bloggers talk about it, but I’ve never actually heard clients say it. It’s always something that they think happens to somebody else or could happen to them. But I’ve never had anybody sit down and go. It’s had curl shock
L – Yeah
D – And even if they had, they’re getting used to a new haircut through this incorrect lens of curl shock, which it isn’t. It’s actually getting used to it yourself. It’s not the hair
L – I’ve got a whole other sort of angle, but I don’t know how relevant you think this is, but…
D – Nothing’s relevant!
L – Well, I just, I felt like it links quite nicely to curl memory or curl training. I think it’s called
D – OK
L – So the idea that you can encourage your hair to be curlier by doing curl training
D – Go on then. talk to me about curl training
L – Well, it’s not something I’ve really tried to do myself, but again, I’ve seen a lot of people doing it. So for example, when you’ve got deep conditioner on your hair, I think that’s a really common time that you see people doing it and they will sit and they will take sections of hair and they will twist them in whichever direction is deemed appropriate in order to make their hair fall in that pattern more easily once it’s dry and styled. And if you do this enough, again, it’s alleged that this will help….
D – No
L – Much headshaking, going on
D – No
L – No?
D – It will help then because you put it into that thing. But the thing is, hair has elasticity and if it doesn’t have elasticity it’s not gonna do it anyway. The only real type of curl training you can do that has any long-term effect is inadvertent heat damage because some bond has to be broken permanently, doesn’t it? So you could perm it. We were just talking about…
L – We were just talking about that. Yeah
D – We were talking about perms, which that could be quite a big topic
L – We should come back to that
D – We should definitely come back to that
L – I just feel like the two things are linked
D – Curl shock and curl training?
L – Yeah
D – Can you feel shock? Can you understand training? If not, you’re insentient
L – OK, well, that’s that sorted then
D – I’m sure there will be those of you who are screaming that curl shock is very real and you will have your reasons and I would love love love to hear them because I’m always here to be educated as is Lauren. But if you ever want to get in touch with us you can message us on Instagram. I’m at boy_meets_curl and Lauren is at…
L – Erm..
D – And if you want to speak to Lauren. You have to go through me
L – Because we can only remember Dylan’s Instagram handle, I want to say…
BOTH – lovecurlyhair_lauren
L – Thank you
D – OK, Lauren, what’s next?
L – Alright, so next is our product of the week, and I know you’re excited about this one. This week our product is Davines Curl Building Serum
D – Davines Curl Building
L – Curl Building. So what did you think of the product?
D – OK, so get ready to hold onto your hat, Lauren, because I didn’t use it
L – WHAT?
D – Yeah, I was going to tell you this earlier, but I wanted your reaction
L – Fantastic
D – I couldn’t get hold of any
L – Yeah, Yeah
D – Davines, if you’re listening. I could not get a hold of any free. I’m so sorry. I did have somebody who was gonna get me some. And when I turned up to their salon, it turns out that that salon is only open from Wednesday to Saturday. So, Lauren, what I’m going to do here is I’m going to ask a lot of questions about Davines Curl Building Serum. OK, so first question is how did you find it?
L – I love it
D – Ok
L – I chose it because it’s one of my favourite products. I love it because I think it does what it says on the tin, curl building. I was intrigued by the name and I genuinely think that’s what it does
D – So my first question would be, is this a styling product or a finishing product? And for those of you at home, and I know there will be at least three of you, who don’t know what a finishing or styling product is, a styling product. Goes on the hair when it’s wet. A finishing product goes on the hair when it’s dry
L – Very much a styling product
D – Very much it’s styling product
L – Wet hair
D – Now. I’ve been a hairdresser for a very long time. Longer than you would believe looking at me. And I’ll be honest, I don’t really know what a serum is
L – Yeah, I would agree
D – What’s a serum?
L – So if we’re gonna break down the name, I think the curl building bit’s, fantastic. The word serum, I think maybe a little bit misleading actually
D – What is this serum?
L – Well, I would think of a serum as more of a finishing product, as you’ve said before
D – Like an oil
L – Like almost like an oil. Yeah, like a light oil that you put on right at the end. That’s my experience of a serum. I think they were trying to stay away from the word gel perhaps. So serum implies lightness, thisit is very light
D – But does it have an adhesive quality?
L – Yeah, yeah. So it’s not like, I think that this is not like a cream. It’s runny
D – Is it clear?
L – No, it’s cloudy
D – And how much would you put on?
L – I put quite a bit on actually because it is quite light and that’s not helpful
D – Remember the fruit analogy
L – Yes
D – How many grapes? I’ve been using grapes a lot
L – Have you
D – I measure quite a lot of things in grapes
L – Maybe 3
D – 3 grapes? Yeah, that’s quite a lot for your hair
L – Yeah
D – Which is…
L – Quite long
D – With anything else?
L – Yeah. So it’s typically the first or second thing that I would put on. So usually a leave-in conditioner first and then that
D – OK
L – But I’ve used it on its own and it works really well on its own, too. On its own it does form, not quite a cast, but it does sort of set a little bit. And I say I like the word the word curl building because I think it works really well. The more you scrunch it in, the more. It actually encourages the curl. Like, I find it really does work in that way
D – But when you say scrunching it, you’re talking about when you’re applying it
L – Yeah
D – And then you would you diffuse or would you air dry?
L – Well, I always diffuse anyway, so. But I do find the more I work it in, the more I scrunch, the more I work at it. It has more of an effect
D – So let’s talk ingredients. What are the key ingredients? What’s the actives?
L – Well, it’s, you know, this is a tricky one because I did look at the ingredients and I must admit there weren’t many that I recognized. So. It was quite hard to sort of decipher it. Very sort of scientific-sounding. Lots of ingredients I didn’t really recognize. I felt like with other products have gone ohh that’s got lots of aloe vera in it, all that’s really nice. All that’s got shea butter in it or something. This I found much, much harder to the point where I’m actually not going to be a huge amount of help with this. Glance through that list. There’s a lot in there that’s quite difficult to…
D – Water, I know that. Yeah, well, that’s a lot of alcohol
L – Tricky, isn’t it?
D – Sure this is not a cocktail?
L – I can tell you it’s not Curly Person Method approved because it has got silicones in it
D – It has got silicones
L – Has, yeah, something actually… I don’t know which ingredient this is but something that they say on their website and I can vouch for this, I think it’s true is that it blocks humidity
D – Blocks?
L – It blocks humidity and I’ve noticed because my hair in any kind of humidity is a nightmare as I’m sure loads of people’s is. I had noticed that my hair was reacting much much better if I would go out in the you know, misty evening or something that my hair was actually behaving itself and. Now I’m probably attributing that to this product, but I don’t know which… I don’t know what the active, the block humidity blocker is. Yeah, but I do think it has…
D – I mean to say blocks is
L – Mmm
D – That’s you know, bold
L – I know
D – In terms of packaging..
L – It has quite an unusual bottle. Matt, gold bottle. Yeah, it’s quite… It doesn’t really fit with the rest of their line, either
D – Is it plastic?
L – It is plastic. I did do a little bit of research on their policies and they have a, they have a zero impact policy for their packaging, which means that the production of the packaging is carbon neutral and they’re contributing to creating rainforests. But I’m not sure if it’s actually recycled plastic at this point
D – OK, so ingredients not Curly Person Method Approved
L – Not
D – Do you think, here’s a bit of a separate one online in the community. Do you not think it’s getting more laisse-faire?
L – Ohh, yeah, definitely
D – I think that there’s actually a reaction to the Curly Person Method now. So I think that topically this is quite interesting. Product to bring in because it isn’t Curly Person Method approved, but you love it
L – Yeah
D – Not Curly Person Method but you’re an advocate of it
L – Yeah
D – OK, so now the stickler, what’s the price point?
L – Generally speaking, around £19
D – Whoa, Nelson
L – Yeah. Which is a lot of money. Yeah. I mean, it is quite expensive
D – How’s big’s the bottle? How much are we getting for our 19 quid?
L – 250ml. To be honest, the one I have has lasted me quite a while despite the three grapes
D – Has it?
L – Yeah, it has
D – I’m just working something out here… Cost per ml. It’s 8 pence a ml
L – OK, that’s really hard to…
D – Visualize
L – Yeah
D – Alright. How many mls in a grape?
L – I knew that was coming! 14
D – That’s £1.12 per grape. Times that by 3 because she’s using 3
L – No, it can’t be
D – OK, it’s £3.36 every time she just styles her hair
L – Something gone wrong, you’ve got that wrong
D – Hang on a minute, hang on a minute. It’s the big one. How many out of 10?
L – Hmm. I really like this
D – Bearing in mind we’ve said that it’s going to be very, very unusual for anything to get higher than seven out of 10, because curly hair is so personal. And then we’ve proceeded to give three things. Nine out of 10
L – Yeah, maybe let’s go 8 because I still really love it. I mean, it’s a great score
D – 8 is a great score. Had we not given other things nine, would he still give me 8?
L – I’m just reacting against that
D – Yeah, you are right. Yeah. Well, you’re not really reacting. You’ve gone bang in the middle
L – Well, yeah, that’s true. 8.5?
D – We’re not allowed that
L – No? Well, then it becomes let’s go 8. Right. I think it’s great. OK. Yeah. If only you had used it too
D – I’m so sorry
L – I remember you taught me how to say that
D – Davines?
L – Yes. Because I remember the first time we met, you said, oh, your hair looks nice. What have you used on it? And I said’‘Davines”
D – Davines.. Loads of people say Davines
L – So thank you for that
D – Davina’s Curl Building Serum Ohh. You’re welcome
L – I did think afterwards you could well have been having me on and you’ve got me going around saying ‘Davines’
D – Well it’s Italian
L – Yeah, OK, I believe you
D – I mean, I don’t speak Italian
L – No
D – OK. So Lauren, what’s next?
L – Fantastic. So Next up we have listeners’ questions
D – Ohh
L – So these are questions that we’ve received, usually on Instagram. So thanks to everyone that sent us questions this week. We have one from Claire in Brighton who has asked which tools would you recommend for a curly hair beginner?
D – Which tools? OK, do you want to start this one?
L – Well, I think I mean things that just brings to mind first of all, so obviously you can air dry, but I think a diffuser attachment is something to start with.
D – Definitely
L – At least just to experiment with
D – Particularly in winters
L – Yeah
D – I think if you can, if you can master diffusing, it’s a great skill to have because you don’t want to be just at the mercy of air drying because there’s so many variables. If you go out, if you stay in
L – Absolutely
D – Humidity, wind, rain
L – Gosh, yeah
D – Shale
L – Just don’t go out
D – OK, this is a great question because this is something that I’ve been thinking about doing. As in putting together a beginners starter pack
L – Ohh. Nice
D – Yeah. So what would I put in my beginner’s start back? I would put a large tooth comb
L – OK, interesting. Yeah
D – Because I know a lot of people use Denmans to style and that’s a very specific thing and it’s a great look, but I don’t think you want to be detangling with the brush. A lot of curl specialists and a lot of curl gurus for want of a better word, will advocate detangling with fingers
L – Yes
D – Because you can feel where the knots are
L – Yeah
D – If you work them with a comb that’s easier than with fingers. As you go through you can feel the bits that need unpicking. What I use is something called the bone comb, and these are great combs. They’re like giant tail combs and they have the wide tooth and they’re all plastic because they’re fantastic for also sectioning the hair. And they are as cheap as chips they’re like £1.50 or half of one of Lauren’s grapes
L – That sounds so weird!
D – And for those of you who have just joined us, that’s a grape-sized product amount
L – Hmm
D – So what else Lauren, would you have in the curly hair starter kit?
L – I’m a big fan of the pineapple for preserving your hair overnight
D – Ohh yeah yeah, great idea
L – So I would definitely be wanting a satin or silk scrunchie. Quite a large one. And so that’s the act of putting your hair in a ponytail right at the front, so right at the top at the front of your head overnight. And then so it looks like a pineapple because it all pops out the top and it’s really good at preserving your curls overnight
D – And do you prefer that to a bonnet?
L – Definitely
D – I’d agree
L – Yeah, I don’t mind a bonnet. I mean they’re quite comfy in winter. It’s quite nice. It keeps your head warm. And the one I have is really big, so there’s lots of room for your hair to move around inside it, but it still gets squashed. So it always looks better when it’s been in a pineapple
D – Do they stay on?
L – Actually, yes. Well, the one I have does, but I still think you’re having the freedom to actually move around. It means that curl stays better
D – Would you also encourage a silk pillowcase in that?
L – Now ohh, now I have one and I really like it, but I haven’t noticed any difference to my hair since I bought it
D – Really?
L – So I know that’s controversial. Yeah, I mean I honestly nothing, but it feels really nice. I would recommend them because they feel lovely
D – In what way?
L – Just on your cheek, on your skin. They feel, you know, it feels really nice. It’s like a nice, sort of creamy feeling
D – But isn’t it meant to be better for your skin?
L – Yes, it is. Yeah. I just haven’t noticed that it’s made any difference at all, if I’m honest
D – Right. So you would go silk scrunchie over silk pillowcase?
L – Yeah
D – Because a lot of people come and go ‘well, I’ve got a silk pillowcase’ I think they expect miracles from the silk
L – Yeah
D – I would think that’s only 1/2 of it so I would advocate a silk scrunchie over that
L – Yeah, definitely
D – And how tight would you do the pineapple?
L – I make it really loose, actually. So if I’ve got a fairly large scrunchie, and I know it’s again awkward trying to visualize it, but I would probably just put that around twice, like, and by the time I wake up in the morning, it’s kind of halfway down towards my ear. But that’s fine. I’d rather do that than have it really tight. Because also I think when you’ve had your hair in a really tight bun on the top of your head, you get that sort of achy roots feeling, you know, in the morning, like if you know your hair has been pulled in a direction, that’s not normal for it. And also you’re more likely to make an indentation
D – Yeah. OK. So let’s have a quick recap so we know we’ve got a diffuser. We’ve got a large tooth comb. We’ve got a bone comb, which is the last tooth comb. But
L – I’m gonna get, one of those
D – Yeah, you should. We’ve got a silk scrunchie
L – Yep
D – What else? I mean, because it’s specifically said tools, not products
L – Tools. Yeah. I think the only other thing that comes to mind is, well, so you could use a T-shirt to dry your hair or microfiber towel
D – Microfiber towel, obviously
L – One of the two. But T-shirt, I guess would work equally well at the beginning
D – See what I don’t understand, is why are we against cotton pillowcases, yet, pro cotton T-shirts?
L – I imagine. So overnight you’re moving around, your hair is just kind of rubbing all over the pillowcase. Whereas I think the idea is when you’re using a T-shirt, you’re being quite deliberate with how you’re using it on your hair. So you’re not just like, rubbing your hair with it. You’re either plopping your hair into it or like, just gently squeezing the water out
D – OK Yeah. So let’s look back, Claire in Brighton, what you want is a diffuser
L – Diffuser. Yeah, absolutely. Wide tooth comb, large? What do you call it? Large?
D – Wide
L – Wide, wide
D – Large wide comb
L – Large wide comb, silk satin scrunchie and microfiber towel, potentially if you’re pushing about or a T-shirt. OK, I think that’s a good kit to start with
D – That is a really good kit. Let us know you get on Claire
L – Absolutely
D – All right, where are we now?
L – Now it’s one cool thing
D – Ohh. OK
L – So this is something cool that Dylan and I have come across within the last week or so. And it might be related to curly hair, but usually it’s not related to curly hair. Usually never has been related to curly hair. So Dylan, what’s your one cool thing this week?
D – I’d like to talk about gut microbiomes
L – Ohh. Wow. That’s a proper one
D – That is a proper one. So I’ve just been reading this book called The Diet Myth by a nutrition scientist and it’s about how your gut microbiomes could be the key to longevity and health. So microbiomes obviously are microscopic. Do you know how much your gut microbiomes weigh?
L – Weigh? No
D – 4 pounds?
L – Wow
D – 4 pounds of microbiomes. You have more microbiomes than you have cells, and there is a theory that they are the key to long life
L – Could you sum up like the whole book in a nutshell?
D – No
L – What do you have to do? Is it, is it about eating healthily? Is that the case?
D – OK, OK
L – Generally speaking, what’s the…
D – I can give you a few keys. So basically the Mediterranean diet is seen as the best
L – OK
D – This is what you want to be aiming for 30 different plant foods a week
L – Gosh that sounds like a lot
D – It isn’t though, because it can include nuts and seeds. So if for example, you have some nuts on your porridge with banana and blueberries, right? Let’s say you have a walnut, almonds, brazil nuts, and you have seeds. So pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds and
L – This sounds like very healthy porridge
D – Why are you turning your nose up? Ohh. God this sounds like healthy porridge
L – Wait til you hear my one cool thing this week. OK? Go on
D – So basically you’ve asked me to go a bit more in depth and then you’re rolling your eyes
L – It’s just that’s that’s a lot for a bowl of porridge
D – It’s not really, I’m not saying have you know, it’s just
L – Alright, go on
D – OK get some mixed nuts, put it on top of your porridge
L – Yeah
D – Have some blueberries if they’re in season. OK and. A banana, right. And so the jury’s out on non-dairy milk. So let’s say you have soy milk
L – Right
D – That’s soy. You have your oats. Yep, 2. Your nuts. You can have five nuts
L – Yeah
D – Yeah, that’s 7. Seeds, let’s say 3 seeds. It’s 10, right? Then blueberries and banana. It’s 12. 12 different plant foods, it’s not even 9:00 o’clock on Monday. You’re telling me you can’t do this?
L – I can’t, no
D – This is why I look like I do. Yeah, I’m actually 136 years old
L – Yeah, you’re trying to convince the toast brigade over here. But I’m, I’m with you
D – I’m not trying, I don’t care if you, you know if you shuffle off your mortal coil
L – I’m actually 18. OK. Yeah, I’m with you. OK. Yeah. 30 in a week is sounding a lot more doable even without the excessively healthy breakfast
D – That’s that’s 13 at 9:00 o’clock on a Monday morning
L – Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
D – OK. Lauren, that’s microbiomes
L – Oh dear
D – Lauren, what is your one cool thing that I’m going to roll my eyes at?
L – You’re going to roll your eyes big time. Rice crispy cakes. So you’ve got the rice, that’s one
D – Coco
L – Coco, does that count?
D – Big time
L – Plant? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s two. So then I think the other ingredients are butter and marshmallows
D – I think anybody over the age of three knows how to make rice crispy cakes
L – But I’m just thinking if it fits in with your see how many plant-based items we can get
D – The jury is out on butter
L – Yeah, OK, so 2 solid
D – So rice crispy cakes. Talk me through it. Why?
L – Well, I had one this morning and I haven’t had one for goodness, I don’t know how long. And I think it’s something that grown-ups should eat more often. That’s basically what I’m saying because I think, you know, they have a reputation.
D – Do they?
L – I think so
D – Where?
L – As something that you eat as children. OK. And I think we should be eating more of them to balance out all the really healthy things that we’re eating. It’s sort of really light, but it filled me up and I’ve actually got some with me still
D – Is that true?
L – Well, yeah, it’s actually true. Yeah
D – I met you at midday. It’s now. 3:15 and that’s the first time you told me that you had rice crispy cakes
L – Well, I’ll share it with you later
D – OK? Yeah. All right. Rice crispy cakes. Did you make them?
L – No, I didn’t. No, my friend Lucy made them, and they’re fantastic. Fun. Tasty. I think we should be eating more of them
D – How often? What do you think’s the optimum?
L – I don’t know. Three weeks. Every three weeks
D – Every three weeks. And you had one for breakfast?
L – But wasn’t the only thing I had for breakfast. It was like the dessert of my breakfast
D – Is that because you had a sausage roll as your main course?
L – Yes, yes I did. Yes, I had sausage roll and then rice crispy cake
D – Yeah. I mean, that is some breakfast
L – It was Fantastic. Yeah. Well, remember when we met, I wasn’t hungry. You said to me, are you hungry? And I said no because I had such a great breakfast. I enjoyed it
D – I’m sure you did
L – Put me in a great mood
D – OK, then. So I think that’s about it for today
L – I think so. Dylan, thank you so much for hosting and allowing me to be your co-host on
D – What do you mean you don’t brush it?
L – If you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to like and subscribe, review and tell your friends, tell strangers. And don’t forget to mention the new name for the Curly Girl Method, the Curly Person Method
D CPM. And remember, you can get us on all your favorite places that you get your podcasts and selected newsstands and we’ll see you next week when Lauren will be introducing you to her new business venture which is unicycle hire on the Dartford Crossing, you’ve got to do that now
L – OK, I’m on it, yeah